agreed to be artificially inseminated with William Stern's sperm,
来生下孩子，然后再将孩子交给这对夫妇
to bear the child, and then to give the baby to the Sterns.
你可能知道，故事会怎么发展下去
Well, you probably know how the story unfolded.
玛丽·贝思生下了孩子，但她改变了主意
Mary Beth gave birth and changed her mind,
她决定留下这个孩子
she decided she wanted to keep the baby.
事情最终上了新泽西的法庭
The case wound up in court in New Jersey.
让我们把法律问题放在一边
So let's take, put aside any legal questions,
将焦点放在道德问题上来
and focus on this issue as a moral question.
有多少人认为，在宝贝M的事件中正确的做法是
How many believe that the right thing to do in the Baby M case,
坚持执行这份合同？
would have been to uphold the contract, to enforce the contract?
又有多少人认为，正确的做法是
And how many think the right thing to do
不去执行该合同？
would have been not to enforce that contract?
大多数人认为应该执行合同。我们现在来听听
The majority say enforce so let's now hear the reasons
不管是支持执行还是拒绝
that people had, either for enforcing or refusing
执行该合同的人的意见
to enforce this contract.
首先，我们听听多数人的看法
First I want to hear from someone in the majority.
你为什么支持合同？你为什么要执行它？
Why do you uphold the contract? Why do you enforce it?
谁能给出理由？请，站起来
Who can offer a reason? Yes. Stand up.
这是一个具有法律约束力的合同，各方在合同生效前
It's a binding contract, all the parties involved
都很清楚合同的条款
knew the terms of the contract before any action was taken,
这是一个自愿的协议。这位母亲清楚将要发生的事情
it's a voluntary agreement, the mother knew what she was getting into,
四个成年人，不分教育背景
all four intelligent adults, regardless of formal education, whatever.
所以，如果事先你就清楚你将要做的事情
So it makes sense that if you know that you're getting into beforehand
而且许下诺言，你就应该遵守这个承诺
and you make a promise, you should uphold that promise in the end.
好的。换句话说，一言既出，驷马难追
Okay, a deal is a deal in other words.
- 没错- 你叫什么名字
Exactly. - And what's your name?
Patrick
Patrick.
Patrick的理由也是你们大多数人
Is Patrick's reason the reason that most of you in the majority
赞成坚持合同的理由吗？好的，现在让我们听听
favored upholding the contract? Yes. Alright, let's hear now someone
那些不同意执行合同的人
who would not enforce the contract.
你会对Patrick说什么？为什么不赞成？请
What do you say to Patrick? Why not? Yes.
嗯，我同意，当各方都知晓所有信息时，
Well, I mean, I agree, I think contracts should be upheld
合同应该坚持执行。但在这个案件里
when all the parties know all the information but in this case,
我不认为，在孩子未出生前，作为一个母亲
I don't think there's a way a mother, before the child exists,
能够确切知道，她对那位孩子会有什么的感受
could actually know how she's going to feel about that child
因此，我不认为，（签合同时）母亲就知道全部信息
so I don't think the mother actually had all the information.
她不认识那个将要出生的孩子
She didn't know the person that was going to be born
所以也不知道，她会多么爱这个孩子。这就是我的观点
and didn't know how much she would love that person so that's my argument.
所以你不支持执行。你叫什么名字？
So you would not, and what's your name?
Evan Wilson
Evan Wilson.
Evan说他不会坚持合同，因为在生下孩子前
Evan says he would not uphold the contract because when it was entered into
代孕母亲无法提前知晓，她对孩子的感受
the surrogate mother couldn't be expected to know in advance
因此，她并不真正知晓
how she would feel so she didn't really have the relevant information
相关的信息
when she made that contract.
还有谁？还有谁不支持执行合同？
Who else? Who else would not uphold the contract? Yes.
我也同意在一般情况下，应该要坚持执行合同
I also think that a contract should generally be upheld
但我认为，拥有自己真正的母亲，是孩子不可剥夺的权利
but I think that the child has an inalienable right to its actual mother
我认为，如果那位母亲要她的孩子
and I think that if that mother wants it then that child
孩子也有权拥有自己的母亲
should have the right to that mother.
你是指，这个亲生母亲而不是养母？
You mean the biological mother not the adoptive mother?
是的
Right.
那么为什么？首先，告诉我你的名字
And why is that? First of all, tell me your name.
Anna
Anna.
Anna，为什么是那样？
Anna. Why is that Anna?
因为我认为，通过自然（血缘）而建立的关系
Because I think that that bond is created by nature
胜过一切合同所创造的关系
is stronger than any bond that is created by a contract.
很好，谢谢还有谁？请
Good. Thank you. Who else? Yes.
我不同意，我不认为孩子对其亲生母亲
I disagree. I don't think that a child has an inalienable right
有不可剥夺的权利
to her biological mother.
我认为，领养和代孕都是合法的交易
I think that adoption and surrogacy are both legitimate tradeoffs
我也同意，这是一种自愿达成的协议
and I agree with the point made that it's a voluntary agreement,
这是个体自愿达成的协议
the individual who made it, it's a voluntary agreement
你不能说这里有强迫的成分
and you can't apply coercion to this argument.
你不能说，这是被强迫的，因此而反对它？
You can't apply the objection from coercion to this argument?
是的
Correct.
- 你叫什么名字？- Kathleen
What's your name? - Kathleen.
Kathleen，你对Evan的说法怎么看
Kathleen, what do you say to Evan that though there may not have been –
Evan说，并不是因为强迫的缘故，“玷污”了合同
Evan claimed that the consent was tainted not by coercion
而是缺乏足够的信息。她不知道有关的信息
but by lack of adequate information. She couldn't have known
即她不知道，她会对这孩子会有何种感受
the relevant information namely how she would feel about the child.
对这点你怎么说？
What do you say to that?
我不认为，她的感受在这里起到作用
I don't think the emotional content of her feelings plays into this.
我认为，在法律案件中，在审判这种案件时
I think in a case of law, in the justice of this scenario,
她情感的变化是无关紧要的
her change of feelings are not relevant.
如果我决定放弃我的孩子，送给别人收养，随后我又决定
If I give up my child for adoption and then I decide later on
要回孩子，这样太糟了。这是一个交易
that I really want that child back, too bad, it's a tradeoff,
母亲已经做出的一个交易
it's a tradeoff that the mother has made.
所以，一言既出，驷马难追。你同意Patrick吗？
So a deal is a deal, you agree with Patrick?
我同意Patrick的观点，一言既出，驷马难追
I agree with Patrick, a deal's a deal.
一言既出，驷马难追
A deal is a deal.
- 是的- 很好
Yes. - Good. Yes.
我想说的是，虽然我不太确定我是否
I would say that though I'm not really sure if I agree
同意孩子对其母亲有不可剥夺的权利
with the idea that the child has a right to their mother.
我认为，该母亲肯定有权利拥有她的孩子
I think the mother definitely has a right to her child
我也认为，有些方面是市场力量
and I also think that there's some areas where market forces
所无法渗透的
shouldn't necessarily penetrate.
我认为，整个代孕母亲的事情
I think that the whole surrogate mother area
在处理人的角度看来，似乎缺乏人性
smacks a little bit of dealing in human beings seems dehumanizing.
这好像是不正确的。这就是我的主要观点
It doesn't really seem right so that's my main reason.
请告诉我你的名字？
And what is – could you tell us your name.
我是Andrew
I'm Andrew.
Andrew，用钱买卖拥有孩子的权利，为什么就没有人性呢？
Andrew, what is dehumanizing about buying and selling the right to a child, for money,
哪些地方没有人性？
what is dehumanizing about it?
因为你在购买人们的生物权
Well because you're buying someone's biological right.
我是指，就像法律所说，你不能卖掉自己的孩子
I mean you can't – in the law as it stated, you can't sell your own child
假设你有一个孩子，我相信法律会
were you to have a child, I'd believe that the law
禁止你将孩子卖给别人
prohibits you selling it to another person or –
所以，你觉得这就像把孩子卖掉？
So this like baby selling?
是的，在某种程度上是这样
Right. To a certain extent.
尽管你与别人签了协议
Though there's a contract with another person,
你们达成了一致协议，这里不可否认地
you've made agreements and what not, there is an undeniable emotional bond
在母亲和孩子之间建立的情感纽带。如果因为签了合同
that takes place between the mother and the child and it's wrong
就简单地忽视这点是错误的
to simply ignore this because you've written out something contractually.
对，你想回应Andrew吗？呆在那
Right. You want to reply to Andrew? Stay there.
你指出，这里有一个不可否认的情感纽带
You point out there's an undeniable emotional bond,
我觉得，在这种情况下我们没必要争论
I feel like in this situation, we're not necessarily arguing
收养或代孕本身，我们只要
against adoption or surrogacy in itself, we're just sort of
指出情感之间的差异
pointing out the emotional differences.
但请等会，我的意思是，将事物分解为一块块是很容易的
But wait, I mean, it's easy to break everything down
你可以说：“哦，我们有合同”
to numbers and say "Oh, we have contracts,"
就像你买了或卖了一辆车。但在本案例中有情感因素
like you're buying or selling a car but there are underlying emotions,
我的意思是，你是在面对的是人，而不是用来买卖的物品
I mean, you're dealing with people, these are not objects to be bought and sold.
好吧，Andrew说，这是在贩卖小孩
Alright. What about Andrew's claim that this is like baby selling.
我认为，收养和代孕应该是允许的
I believe that adoption and surrogacy should be permitted,
这和我是否会参与无关
whether or not I actually will partake in it is not really relevant
但我认为政府应该，政府应该
but I think that the government should, the government should
给予它的公民，允许收养和代孕的权利
give its citizens the rights to allow for adoption and surrogacy.
但收养不是……根据……
But adoption is not – according to –
收养算是贩卖儿童吗？
Is adoption baby selling?
嗯，那你认为，你可以出价，要一个将被收养的孩子吗？
Well, do you think you should be able to bid for a baby that's up for adoption?
这就是Andrew的质疑
That's Andrew's challenge.
你在问，我是否认为，我可以开价收养孩子是吧？
Do I think I should be able to bid for a baby?
我不认为。这是市场经济。我觉得它可以被运用到...
I'm not - sure! It's a market, I feel the extent to which it's been applied
我不大确定，政府是否应该允许它
and I'm not sure if the government should be able to permit it
我得仔细想想，但……
and I have to think about it more but –
好吧，很好。你同意吗，Andrew？
Alright. Fair enough. Are you satisfied, Andrew?
嗯，是，我想收养应该是允许的
Well, yeah, I mean, I think surrogacy should be permitted.
我认为人们可以这样做，但我不认可一旦签合同之后
I think that people can do it but I don't think that it should be
人们就必须被强制执行
forced upon people that once a contract is signed,
这就是绝对是一种终结。我认为这不能强制执行
it's absolutely the end all. I think that it's unenforceable.
Andrew, 所以你觉得，人们应该可以自由签署这样的合同
So people should be free, Andrew, to enter into these contracts
但法院不应该强制执行
but it should not be enforceable in the court.
法院不能强制执行
Not in the court, no.
谁还有意见补充？请
Who would like to turn on one side or the other? Yes.
