我想，我对此有一个很有趣的想法。因为我的哥哥
I think I have an interesting perspective on this because my brother
就是捐精子给精子银行的其中一员
was actually one of the people who donated to a sperm bank
他为此获得了很多钱
and he was paid a very large amount of money,
他有6英尺高，但不是金发，他有酒窝
he was six feet tall but not blond, he had dimples though.
他也有一个女儿，我现在是姑姑了。
So he actually has, I'm an aunt now, he has a daughter,
他把他的精子捐给了，俄克拉何马州的一对女同性恋夫妇
he donated his sperm to a lesbian couple in Oklahoma and he has been
他一直有和她们联系，他也看过他女儿的照片
contacted by them and he has seen pictures of his daughter but he still
但他不觉得，他和他女儿之间有感情纽带
does not feel an emotional bond to his daughter,
他只是好奇，女儿长得怎样
he just has a sense of curiosity about what she looks like
她在做什么，她现在过得怎样
and what she's doing and how she is.
他并未对他的这个孩子产生爱。所以从这件事来看
He doesn't feel love for his child so from this experience,
我认为，母亲和孩子之间的纽带
I think the bond between a mother and a child cannot be compared
与父亲和孩子之间的纽带，是不能拿来比较的
to the bond between the father and the child.
这真的很有趣。你叫什么名字？
That's really interesting. What's your name?
Vivian
Vivian.
Vivian，所以我们这个代孕的案例，商业代孕的案例
Vivian. So we've got the case of surrogacy, commercial surrogacy,
它被比作贩卖儿童，我们也一直在探讨
and it's been compared to baby selling and we've been exploring
这样的类比是否恰当。正如你指出那样，它也可以和
whether that analogy is apt and it can also be compared,
精子买卖作类比。 但你说买卖精子、买卖儿童
as you point out, to sperm selling. But you're saying that sperm selling and baby selling
或者代孕是很不同的，因为……
or even surrogacy are very different because –
是的，这是不平等的交易
Yes, they're unequal services.
这是不平等的交易，因为……Vivian
They're unequal services and that's because Vivian,
你说，联系、纽带
you say that the tie, the bond –
是的，还有母亲时间的投入
Yes, and also the time investment that's given by a mother,
9个月，这和一个男人去精子银行
nine months, cannot be compared to a man going into a sperm bank,
看着色情片，然后存放在杯子里，是不能相比的
looking at pornography, depositing into a cup.
我不认为那是相等的
I don't think those are equal.
很好，好吧
Good. Alright.
因为这就是发生在精子银行的事情
Because that's what happens in a sperm bank.
好的，这真的很有趣。我们已经……
Alright. So this is really interesting, we have – notice the arguments
到目前为止，我们已经提出的这些观点
that have come out so far.
对代孕的反对，以及至少有两种
The objections to surrogacy, the objections to enforcing
对执行合同的反对
that contract are of at least two kinds.
一种反对和“不知情的同意”有关
There was the objection about tainted consent,
这次不是因为强迫或隐含的强迫
this time not because of coercion or implicit coercion
而是因为不完美或者有瑕疵的信息
but because of imperfect or flawed information.
所以，“不知情的”或着说“有瑕疵的”同意，源于
So tainted or flawed consent can arise either because of coercion
它是被迫同意，也可能因为是缺乏相关的信息
or because of a lack of relevant information,
至少根据我们所听到的一种观点（是这样的）
at least according to one argument that we've heard
而第二种反对执行代孕合同的意见认为
and then a second objection to enforcing the surrogacy contract
这多少有点缺乏人性
was that it was somehow dehumanizing.
当法院裁决这个案子时
Now when this case was decided by the courts,
他们对地又有何说法？
what did they say about these arguments?
下级法院裁决，合同应该被执行
The lower court ruled that the contract was enforceable,
双方都不具备谈判的有利地位
neither party had a superior bargaining position.
要价已经给出，价格已经谈好
A price for the service was struck and a bargain was reached.
不存在一方强迫另一方。双方要价的筹码都是均衡的
One side didn't force the other neither had disproportionate bargaining power.
案子后来闹到了新泽西州最高法院
Then it went to the New Jersey Supreme Court.
他们又做何判决？他们判决该合同无效
And what did they do? They said this contract is not enforceable.
他们把孩子的监护权给予了作为父亲的斯特恩
They did grant custody to Mr. Stern as the father
因为他们认为，这是最符合孩子的利益的
because they thought that would be in the best interest of the child
但他们也恢复了玛丽·贝思·怀特黑德作为母亲的权利
but they restored the rights of Mary Beth Whitehead
而探视权应该交给谁，由下级法院来决定
and left it to lower courts to decide exactly what the visitation rights should be.
他们援引了两个理由，沿着安德鲁提出的那个思路
They invoked two different kinds of reasons, along the lines that Andrew proposed.
首先，法庭认为，签合同时没有提供充分的信息
First, there was not sufficiently informed consent, the court argued.
“这个不可撤销的合同，是这位亲生母亲
"Under the contract the natural mother is irrevocably committed
知道她和小孩之间纽带关系之前，所签下的
before she knows the strength of her bond with her child,
在婴儿出生前，她说做的任何决定
she never makes a truly voluntary informed decision for any decision
都不是真正的自愿、知情的，而其中最重要的一项---
prior to the baby's birth is, in the most important sense,
不知情的“，法院这样判决
uninformed," that was the court.
接着，法院也做了第二个陈述
Then the court also made a version of the second argument
反对这类商品化的行为，“这是像在贩卖小孩”
against commodification in this kind of case "this is the sale of a child,"
法院说，“至少可以说，这是在出售母亲对于小孩的权利”
the court said, "or at the very least, the sale of a mother's right to her child.
不管是哪种原因驱使着参与者，利益的因素
Whatever idealism may motivate the participants, the profit motive
主导着、渗透着、并最终支配了这个交易”
predominates, permeates, and ultimately governs the transaction."
因此，法庭说
And so regardless, the court said,
不管是认为，这是“有瑕疵的同意” ，抑或信息不充分
regardless of any argument about consent or flawed consent
在文明的社会中，有些东西
or full information, there are some things in a civilized society
是不可以买卖的。这就是法庭在判决
that money can't buy, that's what the court said
该合同无效时所说的
in voiding this contract.
那么，怎么看这两种反对市场在
Well, what about these two arguments against the extension of markets
生殖和生育领域中应用的观点？
to procreation and to reproduction?
它们的说服力如何？它确实是自愿签订的协议
How persuasive are they? There was – it's true, a voluntary agreement,
一份威廉·斯特恩和玛丽·贝思·怀特黑德共同签署的合同
a contract struck between William Stern and Mary Beth Whitehead.
但有两种情况下的同意，不属于真正的同意
But there are at least two ways that consent can be other than truly free.
其一，如果人们受到压力或压迫而签署协议
First, if people are pressured or coerced to give their agreement
其二，他们的同意时并非是真正的知情
and second, if their consent is not truly informed
在代孕的案件中，法庭说代孕母亲不知道
and in the case of surrogacy, the court said a mother can't know,
尽管这位母亲已经有自己孩子，她也不知道
even one who already has kids of her own,
把孩子生下来，然后为了钱而放弃他是什么滋味
what it would be like to bear a child and give it up for pay.
因此要评价这些质疑，第一个质疑
So in order to assess criticism, objection number one,
我们要弄清，这个自愿交易中
we have to figure out just how free does a voluntary exchange
双方讨价还价的地位和信息是否平等
have to be with respect to the bargaining power and equal information
问题1：我们如何评价第二个质疑
Question number one: how do we assess the second objection?
第二个质疑更加难以捉摸，更加困难
The second objection is more elusive, it's more difficult.
Andrew承认这点，是吗？把生孩子变成一个市场交易
Andrew acknowledged this, right? What does it mean to say
是有点缺乏人性，是什么意思？
there is something dehumanizing to make childbearing a market transaction?
嗯，其中一位我们在这门课谈过的哲学家Elizabeth Anderson
Well, one of the philosophers we read on this subject, Elizabeth Anderson,
试图用哲学解释来Andrew所说的问题
tries to brings some philosophical clarity to the unease that Andrew articulated.
她说，“让代孕母亲压制着
She said "by requiring the surrogate mother to repress whatever parental love
她对孩子的母爱，这份代孕合同
she feels for the child, surrogacy contracts
将母亲的劳动变为某种形式的异化劳动
convert women's labor into a form of alienated labor.
代孕的劳动被异化了。是因为她最终要把
The surrogate's labor is alienated because she must divert it
孕育的社会化过程，即母亲和孩子之间的情感纽带
from the end which the social practices of pregnancy rightly promote,
转交给别人”
namely an emotional bond with her child."
所以Anderson 建议，某些东西不应该
So what Anderson is suggesting is that certain goods should not be treated
开放来使用或被用来营利
as open to use or to profit.
某些东西的价值高于其使用价值
Certain goods are properly valued in ways other than use.
还有哪些对待和衡量东西的方式
What are other ways of valuing and treating goods
是不应该开放来使用的？
that should not be open to use?
Anderson 说有很多这样的东西：尊重、感激
Anderson says there are many: respect, appreciation,
爱，荣誉、敬畏、神圣
love, honor, awe, sanctity.
有许多看待事物的方法，而不仅仅是使用它，而且有些东西
There are many modes of valuation beyond use and certain goods
如果被简单地当作物品使用，就没有被正确地对待
are not properly valued if they're treated simply as objects of use.
怎样评价Anderson的观点？
How do we go about evaluating that argument of Anderson?
从某种意义上说，它把我们带回了对功利主义的辩论上
In a way, it takes us back to the debate we had with utilitarianism.
效用，是用来看待事物的唯一适当方法吗？
Is utility – is use the only proper way of treating goods,
包括生命、征兵、生育、养育？
including life, military service, procreation, childbearing?
如果不是，我们如何计算？
And if not, how do we figure out?
我们应该如何决定，用什么评价方式
How can we determine what modes of valuation
看待这些事物才合适？
are fitting or appropriate to those goods?
几年以前，有位医生丑闻缠身
Several years ago there was a scandal surrounding a doctor,
维吉尼亚州的一位，名为Cecil Jacobson的不育专科医师
an infertility specialist in Virginia named Cecil Jacobson.
他并没有捐赠者的目录，因为他的病人不知道
He didn't have a donor catalogue because unknown to his patients,
他用来授精的精子都来自一个捐赠者
all of the sperm he used to inseminated his patients came from one donor,
就是Jacobson医生自己
Dr. Jacobson himself.
至少一位出庭作证的妇女，对于她刚出生的女儿
At least one woman who testified in court was unnerved at how much
长得很像Jacobson医生，感到非常恼火
her newborn daughter looked just like him.
现在，我们可以谴责Jacobson医生
Now it's possible to condemn Dr. Jacobson for failing
没有提前通知该妇女，是否同意是有疑问的
to inform the women in advance that would be the argument about consent.
专栏作家Ellen Goodman，描写了这个诡异的阴谋
The columnist, Ellen Goodman, described the bizarre scenario as follows,
“Dr. Jacobson医生”，她写道，“给他的不育业务
"Dr. Jacobson," she wrote "gave his infertility business
增添了自己的个人色彩，但现在是剩下的我们
the personal touch but now the rest of us,"
开始了对精子捐赠的一连串重新思考”
she wrote "are in for a round of second thoughts about sperm donation."
Goodman总结说，身为父亲应该是你所承担的
Goodman concluded that fatherhood should be something you do,
而不是你所捐赠的。我认为，她要做的
not something you donate. And I think what she was doing
和哲学家Elizabeth Anderson 要做的
and what the philosopher Elizabeth Anderson is doing
以及Andrew 刚才提出的“缺乏人性”
and what Andrew was suggesting with his argument about dehumanization
他们都在思考，是否有些东西是
is pondering whether there are certain goods
不应该用钱买的，不仅是因为这是 “不知情的同意”
that money shouldn't buy, not just because of tainted consent
而也可能是因为，某些事物
but also perhaps because certain goods are properly valued
比单纯的使用，具有更高的意义
in a way higher than mere use.
至少，这会是未来几周我们
Those at least are the questions we're going to pursue
