和志愿服役体制
are really terribly different from all-volunteer army
有多么不同
sort of recruiting strategies.
整个关于支付人们去当兵的想法
The whole idea of having benefits and pay for joining the army
是一种强迫人们服兵役的策略
is sort of a coercive strategy to get people to join.
诚然，应招的志愿者，不成比例地
It is true that military volunteers come from disproportionately
来自低收入者和国家的某些特定区域
lower economic status and also from certain regions of the country
你也可以用类似爱国主义的说法，来试图让人们觉得
where you can use like patriotism to try and coerce people
自愿当兵到伊拉克，是件正确的事情
to feel like it's the right thing to do to volunteer and go over to Iraq.
告诉我你的名字
And tell me your name.
Emily
Emily.
好的，Emily说，
Alright, Emily says, and Raul you're going to have to
Raul 你得准备对此进行回应
reply to this so get ready.
Emily说，不错，内战征兵体制中有强迫性的因素
Emily says fair enough, there is a coercive element
当一个劳动者为了500美元，顶替了卡内基
to the Civil War system when a laborer takes the place
Emily 承认这点
of Andrew Carnegie for $500. Emily concedes that but she says
但她说，如果你批评南北战争时的制度
if that troubles you about the Civil War system
你不也应该指责现行的兵役制度吗？
shouldn't that also trouble you about the volunteer army today?
在你回答前，你在第一轮投票时选了什么？
Before you answer, how did you vote in the first poll?
你有赞成志愿服役制吗？我没有表决
Did you defend the volunteer army? I didn't vote.
你没有表决。顺便问一下，
You didn't vote. By the way,
你没有表决，但你有将投票权
you didn't vote but did you sell your vote
出售给你身旁的人吗？没有。好吧
to the person sitting next to you? No. Alright.
那么，你对那论点怎么看？
So what would you say to that argument.
我认为，两者情况不一样
I think that the circumstances are different in that
南北战争时，有征兵体制
there was conscription in the Civil War.
今天制度不一样。我想，今天的志愿者
There is no draft today and I think that volunteers
有更为深刻的爱国主义意识
for the army today have a more profound sense of patriotism
与内战中被迫参战的人相比
that is of an individual choice than those who were forced
这更多是一种个人自愿
into the military in the Civil War.
怎样 更少的强迫？
Somehow less coerced?
更少的强迫
Less coerced.
即使美国社会仍然有不平等
Even though there is still inequality in American Society?
即使，就如Emily所指出那样
Even though, as Emily points out, the makeup of the American military
美国军队的组成，并不是整个美国人口的反映
is not reflective of the population as a whole?
我们在此做个调查。这里有多少人
Let's just do an experiment here. How many here have either served
或有家庭成员曾在军队服役
in the military or have a family member who has served in the military
就在这一代，不包括父母？
in this generation, not parents?
就这一代的家庭成员
Family members. In this generation.
有多少人，自己和兄弟姐妹都没在军队服役？
And how many have neither served nor have any brothers or sisters who have served?
这是否验证了你的观点，Emily？
Does that bear out your point Emily?
是的
Yes.
好的，现在我们需要听听。你们大多数人
Alright. Now we need to hear from – most of you defended the idea
都赞成志愿服役制。而且绝大多数人
of the all volunteer military overwhelmingly and yet overwhelmingly,
认为南北内战的征兵制度是不公正的
people considered the Civil War system unjust.
Sam和Raul 讲了反对内战征兵制度的理由
Sam and Raul articulated reasons for objecting to the Civil War system,
它在不平等的背景下发生
it took place against a background of inequality
因此人们服兵役
and therefore the choices people made to buy their way in to military service
并非真正出于自愿，多多少少是被强迫的
were not truly free but at least partly coerced.
接着，Emily 将这一争论，更加挑明
Then Emily extends that argument in the form of a challenge.
好了，那些赞成志愿服役制的人
Alright, everyone here who voted in favor
票需要解释一下
of the all-volunteer army should be able – should have to explain
这在原则上有什么不同
what's the difference in principle.
志愿服役制，和几乎每个人反对的
Doesn't the all-volunteer army simply universalize the feature
内战兵役制，不是有很多相同点吗？
that almost everyone found objectionable in the Civil War buyout provision?
我阐述得对吗，Emily？
Did I state the challenge fairly Emily?
是的
Yes.
好了，我们要听听，志愿服役制的辩护者
Okay. So we need to hear from a defender
看看他们怎么回应Emily的质疑
of the all volunteer military who can address Emily's challenge.
谁能？请
Who can do that? Go ahead.
志愿服役制和南北征兵体制的不同之处在于
The difference between the Civil War system and the all-volunteer army system
在南北战争时，你不是被政府雇佣
is that in the Civil War, you're being hired not by the government,
而是被个人雇佣，因此不同的人，雇佣不同的人
but by an individual and as a result, different people who get hired
支付的也不同
by different individuals get paid different amounts.
而志愿服役制，士兵都是被政府雇佣
In the case of the all-volunteer army, everyone who gets hired
并得到相同数额的支付
is hired by the government and gets paid the same amount.
你同等地支付人们去参军
It's precisely the universalization of essentially paying your way
这使得志愿服役制变得公平
to the army that makes the all-volunteer army just.
Emily?
Emily？
我想，我的表述稍有不同
I guess I'd frame the principle slightly differently.
在志愿服役制中，有人可以置身事外
On the all-volunteer army, it's possible for somebody
完全不去考虑战争
to just step aside and not really think
有人可能这样说
about the war at all. It's possible to say,
“我不需要钱，我不必对此有何意见”
"I don't need the money, I don't need to have an opinion about this,
“我不必对参军和保卫国家负有义务”
I don't need to feel obligated to take my part and defend my country.
而强迫性的征兵制，明确写着的征兵
With the coercive system, or sorry, with an explicit draft
这是一种威胁，面对征兵制
then there's the threat at least that every individual
每一个人都不得不做出某种的决定
will have to make some sort of decision
也许就因为这样
regarding military conscription and perhaps in that way,
志愿服役制就会更为公平些
it's more equitable.
的确，如果不是在征兵制度下，卡内基可以不用参军
It's true that Andrew Carnegie might not serve in any case but in one,
他可以完全抽身事外，但在志愿服役制下，则带有某种责任
he can completely step aside from it, and the other there's some level of responsibility.
如果是你，Emily，你倾向于哪种制度，是征兵制吗？
While you're there, Emily, so what system do you favor, conscription?
硬是要表态的话，我想我倾向 志愿服役制
I would be hard pressed to say but I think so
因为它让国民们都感到一定的责任感
because it makes the whole country feel a sense of responsibility
而不是战争来了
for the conflict instead of having a war
只有少数人在思想上支持，但没有真正承担起责任来
that's maybe ideologically supported by a few but only if there's no real responsibility.
很好，谁想回应？请继续
Good. Who wants to reply? Go ahead.
我想指出完全志愿兵役制
So I was going to say that the fundamental difference
和南北内战兵役制的根本区别在于
between the all-volunteer army and then the army in the Civil War
在志愿服役制中，首先是你志愿参加
is that in the all-volunteer army, if you want to volunteer
然后才是报酬
that comes first and then the pay
而在内战征兵制中
comes after whereas in the Civil War system,
那些，接受报酬的人
the people who are accepting the pay
并不一是想参军的
aren't necessarily doing it because they want to,
他们这样做，首先是为了钱
they're just doing it for the money first.
你认为，在志愿服役制中，除了工资外
What motivation beyond the pay do you think is operating
大家参军还有什么动机？
in the case of the all-volunteer army?
比如爱国主义
Like patriotism for the country.
爱国主义，那么
Patriotism. Well what about –
保卫国家的愿望
And a desire to defend the country.
的确一部分是为了钱。但事实是，我想
There is some motivation in pay but the fact that it's first and foremost
爱国是首要和最重要的动机
an all-volunteer army will motivate first I think, personally.
你认为它更好吗？告诉我你的名字
Do you think it's better? And tell me your name.
Jackie
Jackie
Jackie，你认为人们出于爱国主义
Jackie do you think it's better if people serve in the military
而不仅仅为了钱，是否更好？
out of a sense of patriotism than just for the money?
是的，毫无疑问是....南北内战中有个主要问题
Yes, definitely because the people who – that was one of the main problems
就是那些人
in the Civil War is that the people
那些参战的人民
that you're getting to go in it to go to war
他们并不一定是想打仗的
aren't necessarily people who want to fight
所以，他们不像那些真想参军的人那样
and so they won't be as good soldiers as they will be
成为好士兵
had they been there because they wanted to be.
好的，怎么看Jackie提出的爱国主义问题
Alright, what about Jackie's having raised the question of patriotism,
爱国主义是一种比金钱
that patriotism is a better or a higher motivation
更好或更崇高的动机
than money for military service.
谁来问答这个问题？，请
Who would like to address that question? Go ahead.
爱国主义绝对不是成为一个好士兵的必要条件
Patriotism absolutely is not necessary in order to be a good soldier
因为雇佣军也照样做好他们的工作
because mercenaries can do just as good of a job
像那些挥舞着美国国旗的士兵一样保卫国家
as anyone who waves the American flag around and wants to defend
正如政府想要的那样
what the government believes that we should do.
你喜欢外包解决方案？
Did you favor the outsourcing solution?
是的
Yes sir.
好的，让Jackie回应一下。你叫什么名字？
Alright, so let Jackie respond. What's your name?
Philip
Philip.
你怎么看，Jackie？爱国主义
What about that Jackie? So much for patriotism.
如果你找到了一些全身心投入的人
If you've got someone whose heart is in it
他们会做得比其他人更好
more than another person, they're going to do a better job.
当人们走投无路，例如碰上
When it comes down to the wire and there's like a situation
要把生命押上的情形时
in which someone has to put their life on the line,
那些因为爱国才参战的人
someone who's doing it because they love this country
比那些为了钱的人，更愿意深入险境
will be more willing to go into danger
为了钱的人不关心这些
than someone who's just getting paid, they don't care,
他们能力是有的，但他们不关心发生了什么
they've got the technical skills but they don't care what happens
