这并不能说明，你所认为的都是错的。
that doesn’t take the right of you to argue.
好的，你待在那儿。
All right, I want you, to stay there.
我想听听其它人的看法，然后继续我们的讨论。
I want to bring in some other voices and we'll continue.
请待在那儿。请讲。
Stay there if you would. Go ahead.
我想回答一下，关于手淫的问题
I think that the response to the masturbation-
好的，请告诉我们你叫什么。我叫Steve。
Wait, tell us your name.- My name's Steve.
Steve，请说
Steve, go ahead.
对于手淫的话题，我的回应是：
The response to the masturbation issue is,
这不是一个允不允许人们手淫的问题，
it’s not something that’s permissible.
我不认为，大家都觉得 同性恋行为是不被允许的。
I don’t think anyone will argue that homosexual sex is impermissible.
这只是说，如果 你要手淫，社会也没办法
It’s just that society has no place in letting you marry yourself
让你和你自己结婚。
if masturbation is something that you do.
好的，Hannah。
Well, all right, Hannah.
好的，Steve已经......这是一个很好的观点。
Alright, Steve has drawn... Alright, that's a good argument.
Steve已经让我们注意到，这其实是两个问题，
Steve has drawn our attention to the fact that there are two issues here.
其中一个是，某一行为 是否是道德允许的。
One of them is the moral permissibility of various practices.
另一个是，国家应不应该
The other is the fit between certain practices,
通过将（同性恋）婚姻合法化，
whatever their moral permissibility, with the honor or recognition
不管它 在道德上是否是 允许的。
that the state should accord in allowing marriage.
Steve做了一个非常好的反驳。
So Steve has a pretty good counter argument.
你怎么反驳Steve呢？
What do you say to Steve?
我想，一件很明显的事情就是，人类的性需求
Well, I think that it’s clear that human sexuality
是大多数人 内在需要的东西
is something that is inherent in, I believe, most people
这是我们 不可避免的。
and it’s not something you can avoid.
而手淫，我的意思是，你确实不能和自己结婚，
And masturbation, I mean, yeah, you can’t marry yourself
但我不认为，这否定了一个事实，
but I don’t think that takes away from the fact that
即 同性恋也是人
homosexuals are people too.
我不理解，他们为什么不能互相结婚。
And I can’t understand why they wouldn’t be able to marry each other.
如果你想和你自己结婚，
If you want to marry yourself,
我不知道 法律是否允许这种行为
I mean, I don’t know if you can legally do that.
我不认为这样有什么问题，但是我不认为.....等一下，等一下.....
That’s fine but I don’t think- - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait!
我们现在正在决定、正在商量的事情是
Now, here we’re deciding, here we’re deliberating
如果我们是立法者，法律应该怎么制定
as if legislators, what the law should be.
你说，Steve，那是可以的。
So you said, Steve, that’s fine.
这是不是说，如果你是立法者的话，
Does that mean as a legislator you would vote
你会投票赞成，制定一部 定义非常广泛的婚姻法，
for a law of marriage that would be so broad
让那些 想和自己结婚的人 结婚。
that it would let people marry themselves?
我想，现实中不大可能
Well, I mean, that’s really beyond the pale of anything
发生这种事情，
that would really happen
但我不认为......但在原则上
but I don't think that- - But in principle.
在原则上? 是的。
Yeah, in principle? - Yes.
当然，如果Steve想和他自己结婚
Yeah, sure, I mean if Steve wants to marry himself
我不会去阻止他。
I'm not going to stop him.
你会要求 国家承认这种 单人婚姻吗？
And you would confer state recognition on that solo marriage?
会的。
Sure.
如果我们都同意这点的话，
And while we’re at it,
那 多配偶制的婚姻呢，只要他们双方是自愿的？
what about consensual polygamous marriages?
我认为，只要一男一女，
I actually think that if the male and the female,
一夫多妻，一妻多夫
or that if the wives and the man, of the husbands and the wife
他们彼此都同意，那就应该得到允许。
are consenting, it should be permissible.
还有其它人要发言吗，这有许多人.......
Who else? I know there are a lot of people who...
好的，这儿。
Yes, okay, down here.
请站起来 告诉大家你叫什么。
Stand up and tell us your name.
Victoria。 Victoria。
Victoria. - Victoria.
我们谈论的是，婚姻的神学理由
So we’re talking about the theological reasoning here for marriage
但我想，大家针对的主要是天主教的婚姻观。
but I think the problem is that we’re talking about it within the Catholic viewpoint.
然而其他不同的宗教，
Whereas, the theological, and the point to marriage
以及无神论者
for another religion or someone who’s an atheist
对婚姻都有着不同的观点。
could be completely different.
所以政府不能把
And the government doesn’t have a right to impose
天主教对婚姻的解释 强加到我们头上。
the theological reasoning for Catholicism on everyone in the state.
我们现在的问题是 允不允许同性婚姻。
Which is what my problem is with not allowing same sex marriage.
我的意思是，因为你有你自己的信仰，这没问题。
Because, I mean, you’re beliefs are your beliefs, and that’s fine,
但是公民之间的结合，不仅仅 只局限在 天主教教堂内的婚姻 这一种形式上。
but civil union is not marriage within the Catholic Church.
国家有权来承认，任何一种结合，只要结合的双方愿意，
And the state has a right to recognize a civil union between whoever it wants,
但国家无权
but does not have a right
将大多数或少数人的信仰
to impose the beliefs of a certain minority or majority of whoever it is
强加到 其他人身上。
based on religion within our state.
好的，Victoria。 有一个问题。
Alright, Victoria, good. A question.
你认为国家应该 承认 同性恋婚姻吗？
Do you think the state should recognize same sex marriage
或者仅仅是承认 同性恋者的结合（婚姻的一种形式）？
or just same sex civil unions as something short of marriage?
我觉得，国家无权 在教堂里 承认这项婚姻，
Well, I think that the state doesn’t have a right to recognize it as marriage within a church,
因为这不是他们 该在的地方。
because that is not their place.
而公民之间的结合就不同了，我认为公民相互结合，
But whereas civil union, I see civil union as essentially the same thing
除了 国家有权认可 公民相互结合 这点不同以外，在本质上 和婚姻是一样的。
except not under a religion and that state has a right to recognize a civil union.
好的，所以Victoria的观点是，政府不应该
Alright, so, Victoria’s argument is that the state should not try to
去决定 婚姻的终极目标是什么。
decide the question of what the telos of marriage is.
这个只是 那些宗教团体 可以决定的。
That’s only something that religious communities can decide.
还有其它人吗？
Who else?
我的观点是，我认为
My point is I don’t see why you feel like
国家不应该 承认 任何类型的婚姻。
the state should recognize marriages at all.
我是刚才那 70个人的投票认为
I’m like one of the 70 people who voted
国家不应该 承认任何形式的婚姻，
that the state should not recognize any marriages
因为这种结合 是男女之间的
because I believe it is a union between male and a female
或者是2个男人、2个女人之间的事。
or two males or two females.
没有理由要求政府 来赐予准许。
But there’s no reason to ask the state to give permission to me to unite myself.
有些人也许会指出，如果政府承认这些婚姻，
And some might say that, if the state recognizes these marriages,
将会有益于我们的后代，它会给给夫妻双方 产生约束力。
it will help children, it will have a binding effect.
但事实上，我不认为 这会有什么约束力。
But in reality, I don’t think it actually has a binding effect.
好了，告诉大家你叫什么。Cezanne。
Alright, tell us your name. - Cezanne.
Victoria与Cezanne的评论
So, Victoria and Cezanne’s comments
同我们起初的讨论 有所不同。
differ from earlier parts of the conversation.
他们指出
They say
政府不应该
the state shouldn’t be in the business
推崇、承认
of honoring or recognizing or affirming
婚姻和性 的任何特定目的
any particular telos, or purpose of marriage, or of human sexuality.
Cezanne 等人认为，
And Cezanne is among those who says,
因此，政府不应该
therefore, maybe the state should get out of the business
插手 任何形式的婚姻。
of recognizing marriage at all.
这有个问题。
Here’s the question.
除非你承认Cezanne的观点，
Unless, you adopt Cezanne’s position,
即 政府不应承认 任何婚姻，
no state recognition of any kind of marriage,
那是否 有可能
is it possible to choose between...
在思考 同性婚姻的问题的时候，
...to decide the question of same sex marriage
撇开 道德或宗教上
without taking a stand on the moral and religious controversy
对 婚姻目的的争论？
over the proper telos of marriage.
谢谢大家今天的参与。
Thank you very much to all of you who have participated.
大家今天表现非常好，我们将在下一次课上继续讨论。
We’ll pick this up next time. You did a great job.
像一个凡人那样活着，像一个诗人那样体验，像一个哲人那样思考。
我们还有两个问题 要回答
We have two remaining questions to answer.
第一个，在考虑正义的时候
First, is it necessary, is it unavoidable
是不是 需要先探讨什么是“善”的生活？答案是：是的
to take up questions of the good life in thinking about justice? Yes.
这是否能 推理出正义呢？
And is it possible to reason about justice?
是的，我这么认为。
Yes, I think so.
让我们尝试 解答这两个问题。
Let me try to develop those answers to those two questions.
为了解答这些问题，我们上次谈到了
Now, as a way of addressing those questions, we began last time
同性婚姻的问题。
to discuss the question of same sex marriage.
之前 我们听过了 反对同性婚姻的意见，
And we heard from those who argued against same sex marriage
他们的理由是 婚姻的目的
on the grounds that the purpose, or telos, or marriage
至少一部分是为了 繁衍后代，
is at least in part, procreation,
抚养孩子。
the bearing and raising of children.
而那些为 同性婚姻 辩护的人
And then there were those who defended same sex marriage
他们对 婚姻的目的 进行了争辩，
and they contested that account of the purpose, or telos, of marriage
他们说，我们并没有把 夫妻有能力或愿意生儿育女
arguing we don’t require as a condition of heterosexual marriage
作为 结婚的条件。
that couples be able or willing to procreate.
我们允许 无法生育的夫妻结婚。
We allow infertile couples to marry.
这是Hannah 在回应Mark时，所持的观点。
This was Hannah's point in the exchange with Mark.
在讨论的最后，
Then there was another position
Victoria 提出了另外一个观点。
expressed at the end our discussion by Victoria,
她认为，我们不应该 为这个问题做决定，
who argued we shouldn't try to decide this question.
我们不应该，至少是国家不应该，法律不应该，
We shouldn't, at least at the level of the state, at the level of law,
在什么是“好”的问题上，观点达成一致。
try to come to any agreement on those questions about the good
我们生活在一个多元社会，
because we live in a pluralist society
我们有着 不同的道德和宗教信仰。
