something like that.
好吧，让我再推你把，Julia。
All right, let me push you a little bit on that, Julia.
飓风Katrina的受害者正急需帮助
The victims of Hurricane Katrina are in desperate need of help.
你会说，他们是不值得
Would you say that they don't deserve help that would come
从联邦政府的税收得到救助吗？
from the federal government through taxation?
好吧，这是一个较难回答的问题。
Okay, that's a difficult question.
我认为，在这种情况下他们需要帮助，但这些帮助不是他们本来应得的
I think this is a case where they need help, not deserve it, but I think,
如果你有一定程度的需要，来维持你的生活
again, if you had a certain level of requirements to meet sustenance,
你需要帮助，例如，如果你没有足够的粮食
you're gonna need help, like, if you don't have food
或没有地方住，这情况叫需要
or a place to live, that's a case of need.
因此，需要是一回事，应得是另一回事。
So need is one thing and deserve is another.
没错。
Exactly.
好的。谁想回应？
All right. Who would like to reply?
是。
Yes.
让我们回到你刚才所说的第一点
Going back to the first point that you made about the
个人的财产权
property rights of individual.
产权是由政府提出和执行的
The property rights are established and enforced by the government,
我们选取了代表
which is a democratic government, and we have representatives
来实现这些权利。
to enforce those rights.
如果你生活在一个遵循这些规则的社会里
If you live in a society that operates under those rules,
那么，就应该由政府来决定
then it should be up to the government to decide how
这些资源、税收怎么分配
those resources[inaudible]taxation are distributed because it is
因为它是经过政府的同意。
through the consent of the government.
如果你不同意，你可以选择不生活
If you disagree with it, you don't have to live
在这样的社会里
in that society where that operates.
好，告诉我你的名字。
All right, good, so, and tell me your name.
Raul.
Raul.
Raul指出，其实，Raul引出了第二点
Raul is pointing out, actually, Raul is invoking point number two.
如果税收是经过被统治者的同意
If the taxation is by the consent of the governed,
它就不是强迫的。它是合理的。
it's not coerced. It's legitimate.
比尔盖茨和乔丹是美国公民。
Bill Gates and Michael Jordan are citizens of the United States.
他们投票选出了国会。他们和与大家一样
They get to vote for congress. They get to vote their
投票决定了这些政策
policy convictions just like everybody else.
谁想继续？John吗？
Who would like to take that one on? John?
基本上，在这种情况下自由主义者是在反对
Basically, what the libertarians are objecting to in this case is
中间的80%决定了最上层的10%
the middle 80 percent deciding what the top ten percent
而这样做是为了底层的10%
are doing for the bottom ten percent.
等一等，John。多数决定少数
Wait, wait, wait, John. Majority.
你不相信民主？
Don't you believe in democracy?
但在某个点上
Well, right, but at some point --
难道你不相信，我是指，你说的80%
Don't you believe in, I mean, you say 80 percent,
10%。多数人的规则是什么？
10 percent majority. Majority rule is what?
有多数人决定
The majority.
没错，但 -
Exactly, but --
在一个民主国家里。你是支持民主的，是吧？
In a democracy. Aren't you for democracy?
是的，我支持民主的，但
Yes, I'm for democracy, but
等一下。
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
民主统治和暴民统治不是同一件事情。
Democracy and mob rule aren't the same thing.
暴民统治？
Mob rule?
暴民统治，正是。
Mob rule, exactly.
在一个开放的社会，你可以
In an open society you have a recourse to address that
通过你选出来的代表来解决它
through your representatives.
而如果大多数人都同意的
And if the majority of the consent of those who are governed
你却不同意
doesn't agree with you, then you know,
如果你生活在这样的民主社会里，你就得
you're choosing to live in a society and you have to operate
服从多数人做出的决定
under what the majority the society concludes.
好的，Alex谈到了民主。
All right, Alex, on democracy.
那怎么办？
What about that?
事实上，从我那五十万分之一选出来的
The fact that I have one, you know, five hundred thousandth
一个议会代表所表决的
of the vote for one representative in congress is not the same thing
和作为我个人来决定怎么使用我的财产权
as my having the ability to decide for myself how
这两者不是同一件事
to use my property rights.
我就像是杯水车薪，你知道
I'm a drop in the bucket and, you know, well --
我可能会在投票中输掉
You might lose the vote.
没错。
Exactly.
他们可能会 -
And they might take --
我的意思是，
And I will. I mean,
我并不能决定，我是否应该
I don't have the decision right now of whether or not
纳税
to pay taxes.
如果我不想交税，我就得坐牢，或者把我驱逐出国
If I don't, I get locked in jail or they tell me to get out of the country.
不过，Alex，让我举一个关于民主的小例子。
But, Alex, Alex, let me make a small case for democracy.
看看你会怎么说
And see what you would say.
我们生活在一个民主的社会，
Why can't you, we live in a democratic society with
有言论自由。
freedom of speech.
你为什么不走上竞选的讲台，去说服你的同胞
Why can't you take to the Hustings, persuade your fellow citizens
说纳税是不公正的，然后试着去取得大多数人的同意呢？
that taxation is unjust and try to get a majority?
我不认为，我们得说服2.8亿人
I don't think that people should be, should have to
仅仅为了行使我们的权利
convince 280 million others simply in order to exercise
来保护自己的所有权。
their own rights, in order to not have their self ownership violated.
我认为，我们没必要得说服2.8亿人
I think people should be able to do that without having
才能做到这一点
to convince 280 million people.
这是否意味着，你反对民主？
Does that mean you are against democracy as a whole?
我 - 没有。
I -- no.
我相信在一个非常有限的民主里
I just believe in a very limited form of democracy
用宪法来限制
whereby we have a constitution that severely limits the scope
哪些地方需要由民主决定。
of what decisions can be made democratically.
好，所以你说，民主是好的
All right, so you're saying that democracy is fine
但涉及基本权利的地方，可以不用民主决定
except where fundamental rights are involved.
是。
Yes.
我认为，你可能会赢
And I think you could win.
如果你站上竞选的讲台。让我对你刚才所说的
If you're going on the Hustings, let me add one element
补充一点
to the argument you might make.
你可以说，放下经济的辩论，撇开税收
You can say put aside the economic debates, taxation.
假设个人的宗教信仰自由受到了干涉
Suppose the individual right to religious liberty were
那么，Alex，在竞选台上
at stake, then, Alex, you could say, on the Hustings.
当然，大家也认同，我们不应该投票决定
Surely, you would all agree that we shouldn't put the right to
个人的自由
individual liberty up to a vote.
是啊，正是这样，这就是为什么我们需要
Yeah, that's exactly right, and that's why we have a
修正宪法
constitutional amendments.
以及为什么修改宪法这么难
and why do we make it so hard to amend our constitution.
所以，你会说，私有财产权
So you would say that the right to private property,
乔丹想保住他自己所赚取的财富
the right of Michael Jordan to keep all the money he makes
至少避免在收入再分配中流失
at least to protect it from redistribution is the same
和拥有言论自由，宗教信仰自由
kind of right with the same kind of weight as the right
争取大多数人的利益
to freedom of speech, the right to religious liberty,
是同等的重要
rights that should trump what the majority wants.
对。
Absolutely.
我们之所以有言论自由的权利，是因为
The reason why we have a right to free speech is because
我们有权利支配自己，表达我们的意见
we have a right to own ourselves, to exercise our voice
通过我们选择的任何方式
in any way that we choose.
好，好。
All right, good.
好的，所以我们
All right, so there we—
好的，谁想回应这个关于民主的论点
All right, who would like to respond to that argument
好吧，在那里。站起来。
about democracy being- Okay, up there. Stand up.
我认为，宗教和经济不是同一回事。
I think comparing religion economics it's not the same thing.
比尔盖茨之所以能赚这么多钱，是因为
The reason why Bill Gates is able to make so much money is because
我们生活在一个经济和社会稳定的社会里。
we live in an economically and socially stable society.
如果政府不通过税收，为那10%的穷人提供救济
And if the government didn't provide for the poor as ten percent
那么我们就需要更多的钱
as you say through taxation, then we would need more money
需要更多警察来预防犯罪。所以，不管怎样
for police to prevent crime and so, either way,
这样就需要征收更多的税来维持
there would be more taxes taken away to provide
你们刚才所提到的，政府有必要提供的公众服务
what you guys call the necessary things that the government provides.
你叫什么名字？
What's your name?
安娜。
Anna.
安娜，让我问你这个。
Anna, let me ask you this.
宗教信仰自由的基本权利和
Why is the fundamental right to religious liberty different
右边的Alex所说的私有财产权、
from the right Alex asserts as a fundamental right
保住我的收入的基本权利，两者有什么不同？
to private property and to keep what I earn?
两者有何分别？
What's the difference between the two?
因为你不会，
Because you wouldn't have-
如果社会不安定，你就很难赚钱
You wouldn't be able to make money, you wouldn't be able to own property
也就无法拥有财产
if there wasn't that socially, like, if society wasn't stable,
这和信仰自由的权利完全不同
and that's completely different from religion.
信仰是个人的事情，你可以
That's like something personal, something that you can practice
